Current position is $77k a year, 30 PTO days, $200/mo insurance premium with $7k out of pocket max for me and my child.
New job would be $85k, 17 days PTO, $0 premium but $8k out of pocket max.
Wondering how best to phrase it and if asking for 5 more days plus $90k seems like a fair counteroffer?
I would honestly likely accept the job with just a week more vacation even if they don’t go for $90k, as it’s a significantly shorter commute and a much better position for my career aspirations. It’s really the PTO that’s holding me back.
Edit: thanks everyone, I’ve decided to simply let them know my current PTO situation and ask if there is any wiggle room on that front. I will see what they respond, but thinking about the time saved from the commute and increase in salary I am very heavily leaning towards taking this job.
My husband was offered a position that was going to be higher salary but less PTO- he explained that both me and he don’t have any family that live close by, they either live in another state or live outside of the country (which is true) and so seeing them for holidays require more time to visit. They responded back saying they could not increase his PTO but they raised their salary offer by $12k so we accepted.
If you’re in the US, 30 days PTO is absolutely amazing. I think it is fine to ask for more PTO and a higher salary but keep in mind that many companies (pretty much any big company) have PTO policies that they can’t change on an individual basis.
I was at my last job for 10 years and had 5 weeks plus 1 week sick plus a handful of personal. The new place offered 3 weeks and 1 sick. I just said that at this point in my career I’ve earned more days off and that I should not have to wait 5 years to get the extra week. They pushed back some but I stuck to my ask and ended up getting what I wanted. I refuse to go backwards in benefits.
Simply ask. “The salary increase is close to my ideal / expectation of $90k, but the PTO is significantly less than my current position where I receive 30 days PTO. The current offer is too low for me to accept at this time (only say this if you actually mean it).
I would accept immediately at $90k & 30 days PTO; I’m open to negotiate this further, but I will have to reject the offer for anything less than 22 days of PTO. (only say if you really mean it).”
Best of luck.
Most companies do not offer more than 20 days starting at a new job. Thirty days is a great perk, but it may not be realistic. Try anyway, worst case is a simple no.
In this case, the new job is not actually a raise. If you count up all your days off, you make more at your current job. They would need to offer more PTO (or maybe another $15k) to be an improvement.
Personally I would take time off over an extra few grand. Be prepared to turn them down.
Don’t ask for wiggle room. State your case and state what you want.
I think you can reasonably explain that your family is acclimated to your current 30 day PTO and that a near 50% cut may be difficult. But adding another work week (5 days) would be a great compromise,
Edit: I assume it is a non*-hourly/OT exempt position? Would they still allow 1:1 comp time?
Sometimes PTO is also based on how long you have been with the company. Did you always start with 30 days?
In my last few jobs I’ve negotiated for PTO changes successfully. I do three things:
1. I find out what the highest accrual rate is at the company (this usually is a thing that increases with tenure) and ask for that.
2. Whatever my annual PTO I ask for that amount at the beginning of my start date, so year 1, I would have double PTO and not have to wait to accrue.
3. I ask for the cap or rollover to be double whatever is proposed.
Always get your salary and total comp solid first, then negotiate the things that are important to you but might have less of an impact on cost to your employer. It’s easier for them to say yes to the small stuff after they’ve already said yes to the “big stuff” also if your TC negotiations don’t go well, but you’re still ok with the number offered you can turn around and say “I understand that you can’t get TC to a number were both happy with but I’d be ready to accept if we can just…(PTO request)
Sounds like a worse off deal for not a major pay jump? Does the work sound exciting? How is your current team?
Just ask and explain why you need it. They either take it or they don’t. I was offered 3 weeks PTO and was able to negotiate it up to almost double.
So any large company isn’t going to budge on additional PTO. You might get a hiring manager who will agree to additional ‘off the books’ days. I had this with a former employer. However, then my boss quit and the new boss wasn’t privy to my former arrangement. I told him that it was agreed upon and HR knew about (which was true). He acquiesced and ultimately didn’t care what I did as far as PTO goes. He could have just as well said he knew nothing about it and couldn’t have his staff treated unequally.
I recommend you mention to the recruiter about your current package and if they can do anything to enhance their offer. Then let them speak.
Ask. The worst they’ll do is counteroffer or stand firm. You can’t even meet halfway unless you ask.
Even if they stand firm – if the career path is more promising on the other side of the fence, remind yourself you can do it as well as any other candidate and take the plunge.
I work in recruiting. Most of the time PTO isn’t a factor that they will change. You’d be better off highlighting the PTO decrease, loss of 200/month, and more expensive health coverage while asking for 95k to cover the additional expenses you’ll be taking on making the switch. They will probably counter at 90k but they might do the 95k because they are valid losses that you need to incur by joining
30 PTO days is pretty nuts. It would take a hefty pay raise for me to give that up.
I just changed jobs in June. I was at 90k, 3 weeks vacation, and 12 days paid holiday. Insurance was all comparable. Got my offer at basically the same as old, except 10 days holiday. I countered with something like, “so I’ve done my research on this position in this market, and with my years of experience coming in and being able to hit the ground running I was really looking for 100k. Also, im sure much like yourself, but I work quite a bit of hours and am fiercely protective of my free time, I don’t need any extra vacation, but with this setup I’m losing two days per year, I’d like to at least maintain what I have now.”
They came back with 95k and said, “tell you what easiest thing is to just give you a fourth week”
Honestly if it’s a bigger company PTO is not negotiable really. If it is a small local company then it definitely could be but any corporation will have set standards that apply to everyone so you can negotiate salary within a range but PTO is usually set by tenure if that’s the case
Do they allow unpaid days off?
Unfortunately, unless its a salary, or a higher level position, PTO (benefits in general) are pretty hard to negotiate. Especially the bigger the company. you can of course try, but it will be very hard to get that escalated and brought to the table
Business owner here; my advice is to be smart right now, don’t over player your hand. It is a scary time to be hiring.
I would add that I have a lot more respect for people that just tell me what’s important to them. Just be honest. Be real. Be clear on your needs. Speak from the heart.
30 days PTO is a dream. I have 30, I could never go down to 17. Definitely glad you’re weighing this because it’s so important!!! More important than money!
As a senior-level manager, I see questions around this topic all the time. In corporate America it is nearly 100% impossible to negotiate anything besides salary. PTO, benefits, bonuses, and retirement plans/contributions are standardized at a job-title and/or company level. You’re not going to negotiate another % or two increase to the company match 401k contribution, PTO, parking benefits, etc… HR sets those and the only thing a hiring manager can wiggle on is salary, because they already have a set budget for the position within which they can negotiate. They *may* be able to go back to HR & finance to get a bit more $ for the right candidate, but even that is pretty rare because that then eats into their budget for other candidates/needs.
Honestly, for me PTO is part of the golden handcuffs keeping me in my position. I’m tenured enough that I get 40 days plus holidays, and next year I get a 1 month sabbatical on top of my 40 days. I was getting recruited hard by Amazon, and while I don’t really want to work for them anyway it was going to be a nearly $50k raise. But then I was only going to get the standard 2 weeks of PTO and I noped out of there.
Edit: had a couple of responses that were then deleted. I don’t support not being able to negotiate PTO. Time off in the US is a fucking farce. I’m just relating my experience in corporate America. You should advocate for yourself and try to get the best deal you can. Maybe one day we can have strong worker rights in the US.
Just curious what field you are in? 30 PTO days is incredibly high for the US.
Just tell them you need more pto, end of story. That’s the easiest one to negotiate.
Pto at a lot of companies is negotiable not just small ones and it doesn’t hurt to ask. It’s really difficult to find people you want to make a job offer to so you have the upper hand here. Id ask for 30 days and the job offer pay or 100k and the 17 days.
So assuming both companies expect you to take all PTO your current job pays 40.54 an hour at standard 40 hour weeks. Your new job pays 43.72 an hour (this does not take into account out-of-pocket max.) When moving jobs/companies I always try to get at least a 15-20% raise so I think your counter is fine at 5 days + 5k as that would put you at 47.27 an hour.
However, as others have said and I’ve experienced often PTO is non-negotiable but what may be also on the table is a remote work situation. Since COVID I’ve been remote exclusively, and now if I want to take a vacation, I just do and work during the days when there’s not much to do anyways, taking maybe one or two days off a week. My boss doesn’t need to know I’m not at home nor does anybody else, I’m communicative and do my work doesn’t matter where. As a result, when visiting family my vacations are way longer with near zero PTO usage.
That’s a lot less PTO, which many feel is more valuable than a few thousand a year. You need to know what you value more: a bit more money or life balance? They’re offering you almost half your current PTO and only $8k more year. That’s not enough money for me personally to give up 2 weeks PTO.
Of course you can negotiate, but if they won’t budge, that’s the question you have to ask yourself.
Advice aside, an interesting factoid about commute time. I calculated some years back because I was curious. A one-hour commute each way equals 22 days a year in travel time. That’s 22 x 24hrs. Just some food for thought. 🙂 Also I wish you good luck with the (hopefully) new job!
I’ve had hiring managers (at two different companies) tell me to take a week or more of PTO “off the books,” but never in writing, and it’s not an arrangement that would survive a change of managers.
I would not take an 8k raise to go from 6 weeks PTO to ~3 weeks….
Does PTO increase with years of service though? If your PTO is going to increase after being there for a few years then maybe the temporary sacrifice would be ok.
Remember, your free time is worth money too. 13 fewer days of PTO is….nearly three “work weeks”
Is it really a big raise if you have to work nearly three weeks more?
Do not go through HR for this request. Work with the hiring manager. You can get an “off the books” extra week or two.
I wouldn’t switch jobs in this environment for a measly 8k. Not worth all the stress and time to learn an entire different system.
All of the top replies here don’t mention the most basic part: PTO isn’t discretionary the way salary is, and there is almost always a company policy dictating it. You could ask for more, but you most likely won’t get it because of policy.
They might give you more money to compensate, but I wouldn’t look for them to give you more time if it’s a fairly large company.
If you want 90k I’d actually counter higher like 95k, maybe 100k.
As for PTO just counter with what you want but expect them to refuse. In my experience companies are willing to go higher on salary but usually have strict guidelines on PTO. But I’ve only worked at big tech.
Ask them, “How do I ask for more PTO?”… or just say that you need more PTO and/or compensation to move companies. Inflate what you want by 10% and expect a counter.
Be wary of companies that offer Unlimited PTO. They use this tactic if there is high turnover. In California any accrued PTO has to be paid out when you leave. One of the exemptions is if the company offers Unlimited PTO. Of course if they offer Unlimited PTO, there is no guarantee that it will be granted. Especially if you have a stupid manager.
At my previous job, they converted to Unlimited PTO mid to end of 2020. I had over 120 hours accrued. They gave this entire speech and email about how it would be better, blah blah blah. Of course after the policy took effect, any new PTO you take would come out of your accrued balance. A lot of people ended up quitting. When I left, I received about 5 checks.
Another thing, you should also see how big of a-holes your manager can be. My current manager is not strict about PTO approvals. Most of the time we just tell him we are going to be out for that time and do not submit PTO requests. You take the time out and still accrue. Even our time sheets, which are used just to track resource allocations, are just random time entries.
Maybe the new boss isnt that big of an ass and will let you slide without having to formally request PTO?
Also consider profit sharing, ESOP, bonuses or other pay so you can get a better apples to apples comparison. Personally, I put a big price on cutting the commute down – time is money and you don’t get it back.
I work in HR for a Fortune 100 and we don’t even track time off. But if by PTO you mean vacation time, the longer your tenure the more vacation time you get at certain milestones. So, what I want to know is how long you have been at your current employer, and whether they have increased your PTO since you’ve been there, because I would be surprised if you got *30* days of PTO on your start date, because that’s over 4 weeks and that would extremely generous in a new-hire. So if you to be fair, go look in your HR and see how much PTO they gave you in your initial offer, because it’s not really fair to compare the time off you have with however many years of service, to a company that is going to offer you standard three weeks, and because PTO is service award benefit, they don’t want to hire you into a department where the most senior guy only has 25 days, and just those few days can set off internal equity wars where everyone going to have 30 if they are willing to do that for a brand new guy. And as they say, everything’s negotiable, but key word here is negotiate. So if you tell them I really can’t do 21, because as someone else you build your life around time off, but they’re not just going to give it to you. Most PTO I have seen on an offer letter was 4 weeks, and the guy was from Australia, and it’s a long trip each way, and we know he’s Australian so that’s a perfectly reasonable request , but he didn’t get it for free, I think he said he would rather have the time than his sign-on bonus. And if it’s so important to you that you can’t live without it then stay where you are
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